Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby ZootMurph » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:02 pm

I have been working on PF20 for a week straight now. I've set up several playbooks, I've tested some plays, I've run over 50 seasons (most on seasonal autoplay except my one solo league, which is in year 5). I have several things to comment on... I apologize in advance about the length of this post. I think many separate posts would be more annoying than 1 long post. If I'm wrong, let me know so I can adjust next time :) Anyway, I wanted to be sure I did enough with the game before I came here to make suggestions, observations, ask questions, etc. So I sorta built up this list as I went along.

First few are about 2D mode. Someone already suggested #1 and #2, but as I have it on my list, I will reiterate it.
1) I'd like to see the formation of the offense and defense for a few seconds before the play starts. It helps to see how different formations work... for example, I still can't really see how 52 defense is set up, nor can I tell where players are in Pro Set or Shotgun... Having a few seconds to view the setup is very useful for building plays and gameplans.
2) I'd like a slider on 2D, where I can slide it back and forth, moving the play forward and backward... so I can stop it at a certain point and get a better idea of what happened at certain spots. Also good to go to the beginning of the play to, again, have a close look at the formations before the play commences. It also helps to look at what each player is doing to better understand the plays you create.
3) Finally, this is not necessarily 2D, but I'd like to look at the Play By Play, then click on a specific play to open that play up in 2D to watch just that one play, rather than needing to go through the game to get to a specific play.
4) Would like to see the special teams plays in 2D. Really have no clue what's happening there, and that's a BIG part of field position. Plus there are return TDs somewhat regularly in the game (my teams average 2 a season, which is very high).

Game or Play Analysis
5) These Analysis tabs focus on offensive plays. Even for Defense. I think it would be much better to show success for specific defensive plays, rather than success AGAINST offensive plays. You can't really tell which plays on defense need tweaking and which are actually having good success. I think you can, just like offense, put how the defensive play does against each offensive formation, with the addition of run or pass... so it would look like this... Nickel... NB Blanket... IForm Run... #... Avg. Next line would be IForm Pass... #... Avg. Would be MUCH more useful analysis. As it is, I can't see how the current defensive analysis has any real use.
6) In Analysis, it gives stats against different formations, but doesn't give a total for each play. Currently, we see I Formation, Dive Left against 43, 34, 335, etc... but not total of how Dive Left did overall. Especially when you are creating your own plays, it's nice to be able to see the total for each play. It's nice to see how effective the play is against specific formations, but sometimes I'm just testing and it takes some time to go through 50 newly created plays to see their overall effectiveness. Most teams use several fronts and defenses, so it's key to know that a play is very effective against the 335, but still effective overall against all possible defenses.

Custom Plays.
7) When I edit a custom offensive play, it defaults to Pro Set. So, I basically have to completely recreate the play. I'm not editing, I'm recreating, and it's a pain in the ass :) When you edit a play, that specific play, with the proper formation, should come up and it does not. I haven't checked this on defense, as I have been over testing so many possibilities that I haven't even considered editing at this point.
8) I would like to be able to delete custom plays I've created. I can delete them from the playbook, but not out of the main set.
9) When creating an offensive play, can you please explain the difference between Pass Block, Pass Block Tackle, Pass Block Center, Pass Block Guard? I assume the Tackle, Center, and Guard all mean they block in that area... not sure if this is right. Don't know what Pass Block with no qualifier does. It seems the few plays I've run, all the blockers move inside, leaving DEs wide open to fly in and crush my poor innocent QB :)
10) The ability to create your own routes on defense, and your own routes on defense. On offense, I'd love to have a swing pass for the backs, but there is none. Basically, with custom plays, I'd like to create my own routes from scratch. As a secondary option, I'd like to see the following routes introduced in the game: For backs: Swing, Wheel (swing that continues down the sideline), Angle or V(back runs outside the tackle, then makes a sharp cut inside so it looks like a sideways V). TE Seam Route. Something like a Fly or Streak, but they angle a little away from the middle to end up in between zone coverages. WR Deep Cross, Cross, Shallow Cross (or Drag) (receiver goes a few yards, depending on depth of route, and runs across the field angling slightly away from the LoS), Out and Up or In and Up, Stop and Go, Sit or Spot (where the receiver doesn't come back or hook, just goes to a spot and turns to face the QB.. great against zones), Sluggo (love this route name, hahaha, basically a slant and go, although it is generally run more as a slant then corner route), Post Corner (another double move, where you start inside towards the goal post, then cut sharply out towards the corner of the end zone.. generally an inside the 20 play, but not the same as a fade),Whip or Pivot (slant with a sharp cut parallel to the LoS, looks like a sideways V).
10a) On defense, I'd like to have my defensive linemen rush a certain direction, not just Rush. I'd also like to see stunts set up... Simple stunt left and stunt right, where a linemen goes behind the rusher either on his left or right. Same with blitzing players, where I can blitz them at LEAST right, center, left. Finally, I'd like to be able to CHOOSE who I am going to cover. If you go back to having three choices, you can for example choose the have your MLB cover the FB... if there is no FB in the formation, then TE2 (TwoTE and Jumbo), if not TE2, then RB. I think this allows you to insure players are covered. I have plays where I have 6 guys in man coverage, and 4 guys on offense are in pass routes, and a guy is wide open while three coverage players are on one receiver... it's ridiculous and annoying.

Miscellaneous.
11) I would like to be able to define short and long distances for playcalling. Currently, I think short is 5 or less yards, and long is 5 or more. I personally would like Short, Medium, and Long, where Short is 3 or less, Medium is 3 to 8, and long is 8 or more... If I am at 3rd and 5, it's really NOT the same as 3rd and 2, and playcalling is going to be very different for me. Same with 3rd and 6 and 3rd and 12... But as it currently is, they are the same play call, which is very unreasonable to me. I'd really like more control there.
12) Jersey numbering convention setting. This is not a big deal, but if I could I'd like to see it... You can set numbers that each position can wear, so when you hire a new player, it gives him a number within your numbering settings. For example, I hate it that centers and linebackers are all in the 50s, but you have 8-10 G and T that are from 60-79. Add your 2-4 centers in that range, and free up more 50s for the linebackers in the 34 defense. It's a stupid little pet peeve I have, but I'd like this to going through and changing 50+ jerseys to what I want them to be...
13) Special Teams. We know nothing about how special teams works. Would be nice to have a depth chart for special teams and see it come to life in 2D.

Statistics. I've brought some of this up in another thread, but i'll give my full view here. As a person who is most interested in strategy of a game and statistics from the game, this and play calling are my main focuses.
14) I think it would be easier, and better, to have a drop down list in all statistics pages (Statistics - Team Stats, Statistics - Player Stats, Team Menu - Statistics) where you can choose which stat you want to see... so in Team Stats you could see all 32 teams ordered for Fumbles, Pass TD, Rushing Yards, Rushing Avg, etc. In Player Stats, you could see the top 20 players in a specific stat. In the Team Menu - Statistics, not all stats are available so doing it this way could help create a better comparison... Right now, we only have 9 stat categories in the league statistics for teams and individuals, and that doesn't really give a large portion of the story as a whole for a team especially, but for individual players as well. It's hard to know if PD of 20 is good or bad when looking at your player, but if you can go to Statistics - Player Stats and do a drop down to PD... you can get a better gauge of where your player is at. The main reason for those statistics, for me, is to compare players. When you have a very small sample of all possible stats, you can't really do much comparison, which, to me, is the whole point of statistics.
15) This ties in with #14 above, but there are some statistics missing when you look at your team's player stats. For example, my QBs don't scramble in a test league I'm running. So I can't see how many fumbles they have. It's not in Passing, it's not in rushing, since they have ZERO rushes... Also, can't see return fumbles if a returner fumbles the ball and is a CB... Would like to see Fumbles and Fumbles lost for all players, maybe in Offense or Other.
16) Bug - When looking at a defensive back, I can see how many targets against them, but there are no Catches Allowed... all are zero, so that stat isn't being read properly.
17) In Team Menu - Statistics, in the Defense menu, you see Blocked XP, Block FG, Blocked Punts... These should all be in Special Teams. Defense should be two menus... tackling and passing (or Run and Pass Defense). In Tackling, you'd have Total # of run plays, tackles, FF, Fumble Recoveries, TFL, MT, DTD, and Tackle Rate (Tackles/Total defensive plays). More on Tackle Rate , as well as ThrownAt%, PD% and Rush% later. Tackle Rate allows you to find out how successful a player is at making plays compared to the rest of the defense. In Passing, you'd have total pass plays, INT, Sacks, Rush%, Targets, ThrownAt%, CA, PD, PD%. If the game can keep stats like QB Knockdowns and QB Hurries, that would help the Rush% stat. ThrownAt% is targets/Total pass plays, and allows you to see how well the guy covers. If it's very low, the player is all over his coverage assignment a lot. If it's high, he needs to be better in coverage. Rush% is simply times getting to the QB (which would include hurries and knockdowns) divided by pass plays. Finally, PD% is (PD + Int)/ Targets. This shows how often the player gets his hands on the ball. All these show stats in a different way. Everyone glorifies sacks, but if a guy has 20 sacks in 500 pass plays, and another has 15 in 250 pass plays... which do you think is the better pass rusher. Creating a way to compare players on a more level playing field is important to learn to value different players. Some of these stats are very good at having a proper comparison.
18) New stats kept. I've mentioned these all already. A lot of problems I have with EVERY football game I've ever played is their lack of knowledge of defense and lack of giving it proper due. Everything is focused on offense and offensive statistics... this game is no exception... analysis is based on offensive plays, even when analyzing defense. Offense stats are divided into passing and rushing, but defense is all in one area. Stats are much more thorough for offense than they are for defense. So, the biggest stats to me are pass plays and run plays the player was involved in on defense. With this information, we can get a better look at each player's performance. I'd like to see Hurries and QB Knockdowns as well, to better show a pass rusher's ability. From there, we can easily calculate Tackle Rate, Rush%, and PD%. On offense, the two things I'd like to see are Inside/outside rushing % for a rusher, and, more important to me, is a breakdown of passes based on distance... Behind the LoS, 0-7 yards, 8-15 yards, 15+ yards. Both for receivers and QBs. In another thread, there was talk about many QBs having a high completion %, but the information was given in a vacuum. Maybe 80% of the pass plays were short passes, using a QB with high accuracy and high Intelligence, plus receivers with very high hands. That would get you a much higher than average completion %. All these stats can help not only in game, but also help you, the developers, understand some issues that people say they are having.
19) Statistics Menu - Team Stats... Turnovers for and against. A BIG thing in determining wins and losses is turnovers and turnover ratio. Few turnovers, and/or a high turnover ratio (7:4 or better) is a sure fire reason for success. The reverse could be a reason a team is losing, but you don't know it unless you watch every detail of games. I think this information is crucial in not only understanding your team, but making adjustments on both offense and defense to reduce turnovers on offense and create turnovers on defense. Being able to compare TO (offense and defense), and TO Ratio, would be a great addition to statistics. Also, on team stats, I would like to see 3rd and 4th down conversion success. Knowing my 35% success rate is actually #5 in the league would be great, as i'm used to thinking I need over 40% to have a chance to be in the top 5.

Fortunately, that's all I could read in my notes for now. Thanks so much for this great game. It's a lot better than PF19, and has potential to be head and shoulders above any other game I've played.

Edited to add 10a, which I forgot to put in.
Last edited by ZootMurph on Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby AKH » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:37 am

great stuff zoot. Dont worry about long posts, we would rather that you get everything on here, while you have it in mind that spread it around and maybe forget stuff while you do it.

I cant answer to all of your things right now, and some it is likely will have to wait until future versions ( Especially all the interface stuff).

Regarding Game Analysis
You are right theres more that we can do, and it is something to think about for the future. It is not that much that it is difficult to collect the data, its moslty about finding the best way to display it without users having to navigate a huge database. We know that many players (especially in competitive multiplayer leagues, where people gameplan for very specific plays and playbooks) prefer to have the play vs play data, but we also understand that having the more general play vs formation or play vs all data is desirable. Right now we are on the middle ground, but this is something that I hope we can expand on in future versions. I know that some of the more hardcore players in multiplayer leagues copy the analyses from the game into excel sheets and do a lot extra work there (you can just highlight the entire tables and right click to copy from the game).

@12 there is a reset jersey numbers option in team info that you can try, im not sure how much itn helps since you have specific preferences buts it worth a try :)

@13 we used to have (i think 4 different) depth charts for special teams but they were simplified in an earlier version because mamy users found them very tideous to set. We might bring them back in a future version, especially if we eventually add animation display for special teams.

Regarding statistics, theres a lot being kept and it seems like you are mainly looking at the first page of stats (the one with the nine top10 listings). On that page click "regular season' in the top bar to go to detailed stuff both for teams and players. (If im wrong and youve already found that, sry).
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby ZootMurph » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:28 am

AKH - I assumed some will be only possible in future versions, so I'm OK with that.

#12 is not a big deal, just an idea. It only takes maybe 5-10 minutes to update jerseys so all are within my specific parameters... the only place it matters, really, is 2D when you have it set to jersey numbers, which I do.

#13 - I think it's only worthwhile IF you have the 2D... not so much if you don't, as you can't really see what happens anyway. The big problem, for me personally, is that i'm a control freak and I want to control it :)

I didn't see that in statistics, so that helps a lot. Thanks!
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby ZootMurph » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:02 pm

#16 is a bug.
There are some suggestions that should be easy to update.
Then there are some long term ideas.

After AKH posted, I haven't heard anything from anyone else on the development team... wondering if anyone read it and has anything to say about any of the things AKH did not specifically mention
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby brooks_piggott » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:52 am

Normally for patches we focus on crashes and things we missed via testing, etc. We may slip in a feature or two if they're easy enough or already under-way, but in general most feedback we get is considered for future versions. I'll read through this again and see if any of the comments are bugs and can be fixed quickly.

Also, there isn't really a development team... it's just me and AKH. So if he responds I rarely add to it unless there is something specific I need to comment on.
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby brooks_piggott » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:55 pm

Fixed some things for custom plays and fixed the catches allowed for 4.0.3
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby ZootMurph » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:08 am

Brooks_Piggott wrote:Fixed some things for custom plays and fixed the catches allowed for 4.0.3


Thanks!
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Re: Bugs, suggestions, etc.

Postby JDB » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:24 pm

I would just like to add a few things concerning point #13:
I definitely like the idea of these plays showing up on the 2d. I would also like to be able to call things like fake kicks on offense; and on defense whether or not my special teams tries to rush the punter, set up the return, or cover a possible fake punt. I would also on the strategies tab like to be able to set up how conservative vs aggressive I want my AI to be on special teams. If its aggressive, it would try to convert on forth downs more often and try fake kicks and surprise onside kicks more often. I might try to play it more aggressively a huge underdog playing in a big game. And defensively I'd like to use the strategies tab to set how often the AI rushes the punter versus setting up returns. This would depend on how good my kick returners are.
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