Absolutely horrid roster?

[AtomicSpud]

I know in a lot of sim games it's a huge undertaking to keep up with player movement in every team for a professional league. It's nearly impossible to get every roster right in an active offseason, especially in a league with as many roster spots as the NFL. I also assume/hope that there may be updates in patches or even player-created mods. What I'm trying to say is that I do understand the need to allow for some leeway. And I also know that things like player ratings aren't worth arguing over (even if I have major problems with some of them).

I'm a longtime FOF player, but am currently a bit starved for football sims with the new version seeming likely to be delayed 'til next year. So I downloaded this demo with high hopes about this game and expecting to purchase it, but as a Bengals fan the "default" roster in its current state is exceptionally terrible, to the point that the game is basically unplayable to me. Here is a list of players that are highly likely to make the Bengals final 53, but are missing entirely from their roster in this game:

WR Damion Willis (2019 UDFA, will be starting week 1)
TE Tyler Eifert (2013 draft pick, longtime starter)
TE Drew Sample (2019 2nd round pick)
OG Michael Jordan (2019 4th round pick, will be starting week 1)
OG John Miller (2019 free agent, will be starting week 1)
OG John Jerry (picked up off the street in June)
OT Andre Smith (2019 free agent)
DE Kerry Wynn (2019 free agent)
FS Brandon Wilson (2017 draft pick)

There's also a handful of other issues, but most of those are understandable. The biggest ones are that Clint Boling retired -- but that probably didn't officially happen until after you finished tinkering with rosters -- and some positions aren't right (notably Cordy Glenn is an OT, Trey Hopkins is a C, and Clayton Fejedelem is a SS).

Again, I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk or like I'm expecting perfection. Missing, say, Boling's retirement or Damion Willis coming out of nowhere as a UDFA makes sense considering neither of those were "official" until after camp started. But missing that many pickupss from free agency (most before the draft) gives a bad impression, and missing a longtime player like Eifert or draftees from this year is inexcusable. I guess I'm curious if other rosters are this bad, because honestly at this point the demo has likely lost a sale from me; I just don't want to bother putting a ton of effort into a game where it feels like the developers themselves couldn't be bothered to do the simplest of google searches. Basic problems like this give the impression that the entire game will be lacking, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

[ZootMurph]

The NFL roster is not, nor will it ever be, official in this game as they have no NFL or NFLPA affiliations. That NFL roster you get with the game is player made, and as such, cannot have high expectations. If you are truly interested in playing the NFL and not a game of fantasy players, then my suggestion for you would be to learn the game and create your own version of NFL rosters. I'm very certain you will do a better job.

I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk, but that roster is a mod from a player that was included, not an official part of the game. If you have input into the NFL mod, go here to make suggestions about it: viewtopic.php?f=285&t=29541

[AtomicSpud]

Wait, so it comes with a user-created mod right out of the box? I'll start by saying that makes the issues more excusable in the mod itself (as I said in my first post, it's quite a bit of work to try and keep up with the whole league; mad respect for anyone attempting to do it for free in their spare time).

But that's really disappointing to hear. Firstly because, to my knowledge, there's no issue at all with providing "rosters" of player names/attributes regardless of whether or not the game is licensed by the NFL/PA (the issue would probably come up with player "likenesses" which aren't really relevant here since the portraits aren't accurate). Again, I'd point to FOF who also has not been licensed and still provides them. Team names are off-limits without the NFL backing, but player names aren't.

Also, the idea that the game comes with a basic, necessary feature not included (except for a version that was basically outsourced to free labor) feels dishonest to me. Rosters are a baseline requirement for sports sims -- it's even labeled as "default" during league creation -- and the fact that the studio apparently doesn't support them basically makes me believe they are selling an incomplete product. Mods are great, and they're one of the best things communities like this can offer. But when the game is dependent on them to provide basic necessities that's a big red flag to me. Anyway, thanks for the quick reply, and thanks Wolverine for providing a free demo before I spent my money.

[Gary Gorski]

Also, the idea that the game comes with a basic, necessary feature not included (except for a version that was basically outsourced to free labor) feels dishonest to me. Rosters are a baseline requirement for sports sims -- it's even labeled as "default" during league creation -- and the fact that the studio apparently doesn't support them basically makes me believe they are selling an incomplete product.

I would like to set the record straight on this since you're claiming that we're dishonest and selling an incomplete product.

In no places on our website or anything posted by us or screenshots or anything period will you find that we have advertised, promised or even stated that NFL rosters would be included. In fact in the prior versions not even the community created mod was included - you got nothing but a 100% fictional world and had to search out the mod to download it yourself. The game is a complete product, exactly as advertised, and its a damn fine game.

If you are not happy with the roster mod that exists I would do as the prior poster said - either create your own or offer to help the guy who is doing it. Maybe even if you don't feel like doing whatever goes into creating it just providing him the information on what players should be changed around or whatever might make it an easier job for him to update. A couple people working together can surely knock out an amazing update that would benefit everyone.

It seems like if you truly were looking for something to like outside of FOF then rather coming here to make your first two posts bashing the roster set, the game itself by deeming it an incomplete product even though you haven't spent any real time going through it and our company by calling it dishonest that you would have made the effort to reach out to find out about how you could improve the rosters if that's what is holding you back from finding a new football game to play.

Saying that the rosters aren't to your liking and that's going to prevent you from purchasing...I take no issue with that. If you don't want to make your own roster or help make one and would rather play an outdated game or none at all that's certainly your right. But if you're going to come on our forums and call us dishonest and claim we're selling an incomplete product that's where I take issue and have to wonder what your real motivation is with such a post.

I'm hoping that you will decide to reach out to the person making the rosters, help improve them and become someone in the community people can thank and appreciate for making a great game even better - if not and you're just looking to bash us and call into question our honesty and integrity then anything else along those lines will be deleted.

[brooks_piggott]

A user created a roster for previous versions of the game. We asked the user if we could include those rosters in PF20 and he agreed to work with us on it and include it in the game. He's still maintaining it as a roster mod for PF20 and earlier versions, so I send people to him so that he is aware of the asks and can update his set, or possibly get help from other folks that want to contribute. We are very appreciative of his efforts as we are of all our modders, testers, and others.

As we get closer to NFL rosters getting set for opening day we'll reconcile the rosters in the game with all of his updates and push it out as a patch. I'm choosing to focus on other aspects of the game for patches now based on community feedback... seems reasonable to do that rather than focusing on rosters that aren't even locked yet for the season.

[cdcool]

Also, the idea that the game comes with a basic, necessary feature not included (except for a version that was basically outsourced to free labor) feels dishonest to me. Rosters are a baseline requirement for sports sims -- it's even labeled as "default" during league creation -- and the fact that the studio apparently doesn't support them basically makes me believe they are selling an incomplete product. Mods are great, and they're one of the best things communities like this can offer. But when the game is dependent on them to provide basic necessities that's a big red flag to me. Anyway, thanks for the quick reply, and thanks Wolverine for providing a free demo before I spent my money.

What you are stating is ridiculous.
Make all those corrections yourself or wait for an updated mod or roster update.
I've used roster, schedule and NFL mod's with FOF also and have been playing it for years.

[Tigerman]

I know in a lot of sim games it's a huge undertaking to keep up with player movement in every team for a professional league. It's nearly impossible to get every roster right in an active offseason, especially in a league with as many roster spots as the NFL. I also assume/hope that there may be updates in patches or even player-created mods. What I'm trying to say is that I do understand the need to allow for some leeway. And I also know that things like player ratings aren't worth arguing over (even if I have major problems with some of them).

I'm a longtime FOF player, but am currently a bit starved for football sims with the new version seeming likely to be delayed 'til next year. So I downloaded this demo with high hopes about this game and expecting to purchase it, but as a Bengals fan the "default" roster in its current state is exceptionally terrible, to the point that the game is basically unplayable to me. Here is a list of players that are highly likely to make the Bengals final 53, but are missing entirely from their roster in this game:

WR Damion Willis (2019 UDFA, will be starting week 1)
TE Tyler Eifert (2013 draft pick, longtime starter)
TE Drew Sample (2019 2nd round pick)
OG Michael Jordan (2019 4th round pick, will be starting week 1)
OG John Miller (2019 free agent, will be starting week 1)
OG John Jerry (picked up off the street in June)
OT Andre Smith (2019 free agent)
DE Kerry Wynn (2019 free agent)
FS Brandon Wilson (2017 draft pick)

There's also a handful of other issues, but most of those are understandable. The biggest ones are that Clint Boling retired -- but that probably didn't officially happen until after you finished tinkering with rosters -- and some positions aren't right (notably Cordy Glenn is an OT, Trey Hopkins is a C, and Clayton Fejedelem is a SS).

Again, I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk or like I'm expecting perfection. Missing, say, Boling's retirement or Damion Willis coming out of nowhere as a UDFA makes sense considering neither of those were "official" until after camp started. But missing that many pickupss from free agency (most before the draft) gives a bad impression, and missing a longtime player like Eifert or draftees from this year is inexcusable. I guess I'm curious if other rosters are this bad, because honestly at this point the demo has likely lost a sale from me; I just don't want to bother putting a ton of effort into a game where it feels like the developers themselves couldn't be bothered to do the simplest of google searches. Basic problems like this give the impression that the entire game will be lacking, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

Some of those player I have accidently either forgot to re-add them to the team (Eifert) or put them on a different roster (Sample). Some are missing completely. If you have suggestions feel free to dm me. Also John Jerry didn't make the final roster.

[AtomicSpud]

I wasn't planning to return to this, but since some staff members (and I assume the roster mod creator, Tigerman) chimed in, I think they deserve a response. I won't use a chain of quote blocks to reply, but I hope my point gets across.

Firstly, I'll apologize. Gary was right to call me out, "dishonest" isn't the right term to describe what I meant to imply, and to be completely honest I'm still not sure what word would be most appropriate. He took offense to that and I understand why. "Misleading" is a little closer, but still sounds too intentional and accusatory for my liking; I want to be clear that I don't think Wolverine is trying to lie or cheat people (a free demo should be more than proof of that). But I ask you consider it from my point of view. I have no history with this game (or any Wolverine game actually), and no frame of reference for its history or its development. Booting up a fresh download of the game, even looking at the help doc, tells me there is a "default roster" option. After choosing it, I'm left staring down what was at the time, to put it frankly, an inadequate product. That's my first impression of the entire game! Even if you argue that calling it incomplete is too harsh, you at the very minimum would consider that unpolished if you saw it from the customer's angle, correct? And when it is mentioned on the official forum, the general response is "do it yourself" or "tell this 3rd party, the developers can't help". Dunno about you, but that seems less than ideal to me.

The problem is one of expectation. If the game came with no roster included where it could only generate fake ones out of the box, I'd still personally consider that incomplete for my tastes, but also understand that the game simply wasn't made for my specific desires. In that scenario, I'd probably download Tigerman's mod myself whenever it was released, but have vastly different expectations of and responses to its accuracy (and again, props to him because attempting to keep up with 32 different teams over the offseason while also trying to avoid the clutter of a ton of camp-filler guys all in your free time is insane and I couldn't do it). Honestly, including that mod with the game download is convenient for people who play like me, so I'm glad you are experimenting to figure out how to make that happen. And of course, the story that I've seen laid out through this thread explains pretty much everything. Not only is the roster file player created/maintained, but it's also the first(?) year that it's being rolled out with the game itself (also, thanks for confirming that a regular-season update would get pushed after rosters were "finalized"). My issues make much more sense after being aware of that. But that's the rub: As a fresh player, I didn't know that, I couldn't know that, and I had no reason to think or believe that. I'm certainly no game dev, so I don't know what the best solution is for that. Just brainstorming as I type, maybe a mention in the User Guide under the league creation section that the "default rosters" aren't official or that they are user-maintained? At least then you'd have something to point to if another jerk like me comes along.

I'll also mention that I did poke around a bit more in the game and enjoyed myself for the most part, even if I didn't put enough time in it to really get invested. And again, a very sincere thanks to Wolverine to providing a free demo. Seriously, that's awesome especially with how uncommon it is nowadays. And thanks for hearing me out, I probably won't be posting again, but wanted to apologize for the "dishonest" term if nothing else.