CPU Coach Potential Ratings

CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby nuwildcat » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:29 am

Are coaches ratings capped at their potential ratings that you can see in the database or editor or can they exceed them over time? It seems that there is very little room for growth among the coaches between their current and potential ratings making it unlikely that a young coach will grow into a much better coach in the future.
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby chubspeterson » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:04 pm

I believe they're capped.I typically will write the names of the Final Four coaches down so I can go in and manually boost their potential. I like following the careers of coaches, and the coach potential system could use an adjustment. I'm guessing it's to stop over saturation of "super coaches" as you advance, but it severely hampers the growth potential of coaches. It's how you end up seeing the same coaches constantly rehired and fired - there are only so many coaches that meet the "requirements" to be a head coach.
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby Timmuh » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:52 pm

This isn’t something I’ve thought about but definitely will look into it now.

I like the idea of boosting final four coaches. About how much do you boost them? I’m also think I may do a similar thing with mid-major teams that have great years.
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby nuwildcat » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:20 pm

I am considering increasing the potential ratings by age. So something like 10% more for coaches in there 50s, 20% for 40s etc. Any thoughts?
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby NCAAhoops » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:04 am

This conversation is something I have spent some time considering myself. I have thought I don't see the next Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self, John Calipari's in the coaches pool. I guess the thing that needs sorted out is are we all looking at the same things. Game generated coaches or the College Mod with real coaches. If we can draw some solid conclusions I'll update the coaches in the mod accordingly now and future releases.
A couple of things to throw out there:
1. The same head coaches are hired/fired in the game and I do think that follows real life college fairly. Even at the end of this year only a few have never been a head coach are getting the head coach jobs, most are recycled from another team. The top 2/3 of existing coaches stay head coaches until they retire, even if its with a bunch of different teams. This seams true in the NBA as well.
2. The new head coaches without previous experience come from the unemployed pool or top 2nd assistants which seems realistic in the game if you follow real coaching changes.
3. What I don't see is the next Hall of Fame coaches rising from the available pool . It should not be many but 3 to 5 coaches should have possible hall of fame future ability in their potential.
4. Does this mean assistants need to be tweaked as well to keep things balanced?

I do sim my mods 4 to 5 years with several different starts to look at things but unlike some of the users out there that sim 10-20 season probably see things I don't. I am lucky to go 5 years before something causes me to restart an association because I play out all my games 2D it takes me much longer to get thru seasons.

Hopefully we can have a casual conversation on this here in this thread and apply it to improvements in the Mod coaches.
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby TripLykely » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:00 pm

NCAAhoops wrote:This conversation is something I have spent some time considering myself. I have thought I don't see the next Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self, John Calipari's in the coaches pool. I guess the thing that needs sorted out is are we all looking at the same things. Game generated coaches or the College Mod with real coaches. If we can draw some solid conclusions I'll update the coaches in the mod accordingly now and future releases.
A couple of things to throw out there:
1. The same head coaches are hired/fired in the game and I do think that follows real life college fairly. Even at the end of this year only a few have never been a head coach are getting the head coach jobs, most are recycled from another team. The top 2/3 of existing coaches stay head coaches until they retire, even if its with a bunch of different teams. This seams true in the NBA as well.
2. The new head coaches without previous experience come from the unemployed pool or top 2nd assistants which seems realistic in the game if you follow real coaching changes.
3. What I don't see is the next Hall of Fame coaches rising from the available pool . It should not be many but 3 to 5 coaches should have possible hall of fame future ability in their potential.
4. Does this mean assistants need to be tweaked as well to keep things balanced?

I do sim my mods 4 to 5 years with several different starts to look at things but unlike some of the users out there that sim 10-20 season probably see things I don't. I am lucky to go 5 years before something causes me to restart an association because I play out all my games 2D it takes me much longer to get thru seasons.

Hopefully we can have a casual conversation on this here in this thread and apply it to improvements in the Mod coaches.


Only speaking for myself, although I'd imagine it's the same for most of the player base, I use your real world mod. As one of the players who likes doing long runs (although playing out every game is intriguing, that's where I found the most enjoyment with FOF) I'd say #3/#4 are the areas of focus as I generally agree with you on the prior points.

The 3-5 coaches with HOF potential sounds about right but am curious how this would play out. How many seasons would one have to play with your mod to have all the real coaches retire and be replaced by CPU generated coaches? I'd imagine its several decades and a moot point for the vast majority of the player base. I'm curious because ideally a new HOF coach would emerge every X number of years in real life.

It would be nice if an assistant or two was destined for greatness, although once you know who you'd know it for every run you start. Fundamentally I think your mod being tweaked would be great but this probably needs to be reworked from the developer side, particularly for long multi-decade runs. Maybe 1% (arbitrary number) of new coaches added to the pool have HOF potential but the rest fall somewhere closer to the mean and will stay near it for their entire career? Maybe a global setting that allows the user to adjust coach progression/potential?

As for the idea of bumping potential on Final Four coaches, I like that idea and will implement it in my current run. Tough to say how much of a bump is ideal but my gut is leaning towards around 20%. Hypothetically you have 60 rated coach reach the Final Four, a boost of 6 to potential is pretty negligible and more than 12 starts to feel excessive.

Just a quick aside for NCAAhoops and your mod, if I were to cap my coaches potential where should I cap it to stay just under the top coaches?
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby chubspeterson » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:06 pm

Timmuh wrote:This isn’t something I’ve thought about but definitely will look into it now.

I like the idea of boosting final four coaches. About how much do you boost them? I’m also think I may do a similar thing with mid-major teams that have great years.


It depends, but typically less than 5 points on average, but if a coach's ratings look out of the norm I might do even more. Like for instance if a coach's ratings are all above 80, but his recruiting is only 40, I might pump his recruiting potential up to 55 or 60, with my thought being "making the Final Four makes recruiting easier."

In regards to some of the other discussion above, I do think some of these issues would be solved with properly rated assistant coaches. However I think the CPU decision making for coaches would need to be tweaked as a whole to see full scale results. I'll see programs who are top 10 in prestige hire a new head coach that has a .500 record at 2-3 failed previous stops. There seems to be an awful lot of lateral job hopping every 2-3 years as well with some coaches (although I do recognize there are a few examples of this in real life).
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby NCAAhoops » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:34 pm

I have an update to the Mod ready to release so I may go ahead an release it and work on the coaches potentials later as I would like to see what ideas come from this post.
A little insight on the way I developed potentials. I use real life stats to develop Coaches current ratings as a base line and either add or reduce those ratings based on the team prestige they coach to balance things otherwise they will leave for another job after the first year as I think the game matches coaches ratings to team prestige although there are many other factors as well.
The potentials are pretty much done based on 10 game starts with game generated coaches that I averaged the potentials of those coaches to get an idea what the game did on its own. Then I applied those averages to maximum-average-minimum to coaches based on their current ratings I generated with stats. For instance total points added to current ratings to become potentials are minimum=0, Max was 23, Average is 7. So if a coach has 10 points potential he has about 2 points that can be added to each rating. not many for a lifetime.
The thing I see if there is a young coach 24 years old that has Offense/Defense/Recruiting/Scouting/Player Development total of 275 even if the max 23 is added to that we are 298 never a top coach.
Because I have seen the game generate some pretty good coaches when current ones retire I'm not sure how that all works. There are about 10 coaches with a current total rating over 400 so when they retire I think there should be a number near 10 coming up thru the ranks to fill in those spots.
I can make that happen in the mod but then the question becomes who gets higher potentials to achieve that? How do I predict who's going to be the next star coach? On many occasions a coach looks like he's the next coming only to fade back to the pack. The coaches I listed in the above post all had many back to back great seasons and won championships. Thus does Mark Few at Gonzaga get picked. Great seasons, no championships and there are several other coaches fit that mold.
Maybe the answer is create a few fake coaches in the unemployed area but with high potentials so it takes years for them to become a great coach after the current ones retire?
I think I'll run some test with a couple of 24 year old unemployed coaches with low rating but 450 total ratings (500 is max) and sim some to see how long it takes him to be a blue blood coach. I would assume at least 20 years but don't really know.
Of course this can be applied to the Real Coaches but then we need a conversation of who are the next Hall of Farmer's? I see some guys that could be. For instance if Coach K retired and Mark Few took that job he probably would start adding some Championships but we are into what if's at that point. I should have bought that Crystal ball at the flea market years ago, I could use it now!
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby nuwildcat » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:02 pm

That seems to make a lot of sense. It will be interesting to see what happens when you run the sims you mentioned. I would think that obviously younger coaches would have more ability to grow significantly. As for who should get bigger potential bumps in the real life mod, I think it should be younger coaches at high prestige schools. For example, if a 30 year old is hired as an assistant at a program like Duke or Kentucky, that is in itself an accomplishment. To me that means it is more likely they will become successful head coaches than a young coach at a smaller program.
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Re: CPU Coach Potential Ratings

Postby NCAAhoops » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:40 pm

Yes I'm going to make an unemployed 24 year old low ratings with mid 400's potential. Also may try a few high rated 2nd assistants like Tommy Lloyd who is 47 and was an Gonzaga assistant but is now the head coach of Arizona and do the same and a few other until I have 7 coaches setup and then sim at least 20 years and more if I need to see results on those 7. I can't do that until later this week but I'm interested in a 24 year old compared to a 47 year old how that would progress. I assume the 24 year old would be hired as an assistant and as his ratings keep climbing at a good pace he would get a head coach job and then climb to a major school. But who knows until we try. I just want to keep it at a low number of coaches that can get to those 400 number to not upset the game balance.
If that pans out I would probably pick 5 to 10 up and coming coaches to increase their potential but keep them just under or right at 400's as they would never be a Duke or Kentucky type coach up above 430's.
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