Suggestion: DL and LB distinctions

[Mwilliams01]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/121 ... -alignment

I've included a link to a brief article that could explain it better. But in short - outside linebackers are often better at pass rushing and coverage. And while my primary desire is for better AI to determine which linebacker plays what position, I thought the simplest way was to create a clear distinction between the linebackers. And in my defense, this isn't a novel idea because it's been used by every major American football game I've played for as long as I can remember.

I'm bringing this up for players like me who prefer the single player mode against the AI. I can easily rearrange the depth chart for my team if I choose but I'd rather not have to comb the the CPU's roster to make the decisions for them.

And I would like more input as to why this shouldn't happen. As it's been mentioned before, the game recognizes the difference between offensive linemen, even though those positions seem to be more interchangeable than inside and outside linebackers in real life. Why is this particular change so controversial?

And one of the good things this conversation has caused is for me to look a little deeper into the numbers in the game. I've learned DEs overwhelmingly get the sacks in the game! I've simmed 3 seasons so far and every season DEs are the only ones listed in the top 10. And the great passing rushing LBs of the NFL like T.J Watt, Khalil Mack, and Chandler Jones never had a season where they got more than 4 sacks (maybe because they all played MLB?). If realism in single player career mode is a top priority for this game, I think there's an opportunity here to improve in this area.

[NotMikeZimmer]

I've learned DEs overwhelmingly get the sacks in the game! I've simmed 3 seasons so far and every season DEs are the only ones listed in the top 10. And the great passing rushing LBs of the NFL like T.J Watt, Khalil Mack, and Chandler Jones never had a season where they got more than 4 sacks (maybe because they all played MLB?). If realism in single player career mode is a top priority for this game, I think there's an opportunity here to improve in this area.

Im not really interested in continuing to present arguments as my position is already known, but I can help you clear this up.

Take a look at the play art in the stock plays. If memory serves there are only TWO plays in the whole book (outside the blitz list) that have OLBs rushing the quarterback. They cant get sacks if they are not trying. The way the blitz playbook works (for AI play called teams) is like this: Each play there is a % chance a blitz will be called, IF a blitz is called one is selected at random (there may be modifying factors but its basically random) which means many combinations of players could or could not blitz on that play. These two factors combine to mean that the percentage of plays where someone on the Depth chart at OLB is rushing the QB is very small. Breaking the Linebackers into more position types will not change anything about how many sacks they get, or really anything about how they play on the field, it would only change who (which players) would be effective at the OLB depth position play assignment based on position skill. For that you would need to change play designs, perhaps try custom plays?

Another thing to consider on these lines is that the developers do not tune the engine to produce stats in line with NFL outcomes until the end of early access, so any stat treads you notice do not necessarily reflect the outcomes you will see with the finished product.

One other thing I would like to say. Everyone on this form is obviously interested in football. For people, not Mwilliams01 specifically but also Mwilliams01, to repeatedly insinuate that others do not understand the difference between in OLB and ILB, or MLB in real Football is insulting, unnecessary, and silly. That is not the issue. The question at stake is more related to the realties of game mechanics.

[Mwilliams01]

I sincerely apologize if I’ve insulted anyone with my thoughts, perspective, and words. I promise it was never my intention to cause division or hurt feelings. I will do a better job of communicating in the future, if I decide to post in this forum again.

[NotMikeZimmer]

To clarify. I am not upset or angry, and I do not feel insulted. I definitely never meant to upset anyone or make anyone feel uncomfortable.

But I do stand by what I said. It is, or at least comes of as, condescending to assume that the reason someone has a point of view different from your own is that they misunderstand a basic concept or definition. Such as what different types of linebackers are in Real football.

Perhaps we are all guilty of this at times. I'm sure I've done it. And I am sure it was not your intention.

[C-Bailey24]

After reading through the thread I noticed that every "suggestion" that was made to the OP was related to how the USER can circumvent this issue. But the fact remains of what about the AI? Everyone doesn't play MP. This affects immersion and in a single player environment I think we all can agree that immersion is high up on the list. The AI clearly can't make a distinction between a J.J. Watt type pass rushing LB and Bobby Wagner. As for the comment that was made that about the stats not being "final" and would somehow reflect more real life-like stats after Early Access, well, this is just incorrect. At least where Sacks are concerned. I went back into a league in '21 and went through the Almanac and over the course of 10 seasons there was not ONE Linebacker amongst the Leaders in Sacks. Not one. It seems that the structure of the defensive plays could be severely affecting this, which if true, really needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that this aspect of the game has been touched in awhile. Again, there are adjustments and custom plays, etc that can be made from the aspect of the User and in the MP environment, but in solo play a big part of the immersion comes from the strategy capabilities of the User and the AI, stats, etc. Seems the game could use some improvement here.

[Sweed]

After reading through the thread I noticed that every "suggestion" that was made to the OP was related to how the USER can circumvent this issue. But the fact remains of what about the AI? Everyone doesn't play MP. This affects immersion and in a single player environment I think we all can agree that immersion is high up on the list. The AI clearly can't make a distinction between a J.J. Watt type pass rushing LB and Bobby Wagner. As for the comment that was made that about the stats not being "final" and would somehow reflect more real life-like stats after Early Access, well, this is just incorrect. At least where Sacks are concerned. I went back into a league in '21 and went through the Almanac and over the course of 10 seasons there was not ONE Linebacker amongst the Leaders in Sacks. Not one. It seems that the structure of the defensive plays could be severely affecting this, which if true, really needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that this aspect of the game has been touched in awhile. Again, there are adjustments and custom plays, etc that can be made from the aspect of the User and in the MP environment, but in solo play a big part of the immersion comes from the strategy capabilities of the User and the AI, stats, etc. Seems the game could use some improvement here.

I've had the same thoughts about single player and how this works. However as a first time user I've been hesitant to comment until I actually see how things work out when I play. Looking over my roster page at linebackers and my thinking is if we don't add MLB, OLB then the AI needs a way to make better decisions. Speed, agility, etc. OLB. Strength, tackling, etc. MLB. Oversimplified example I know but something along these lines. Set it up with no penalty for anyone in the LB group to play any spot, it's already not there now. Just have a better way for the AI to make the selections. Whether that is by adding MLB, OLB or tuning the skills the AI uses to make the selection now doesn't matter, I guess, as long as a more realistic decision can be made for single players.

[Pialdret]

After reading through the thread I noticed that every "suggestion" that was made to the OP was related to how the USER can circumvent this issue. But the fact remains of what about the AI? Everyone doesn't play MP. This affects immersion and in a single player environment I think we all can agree that immersion is high up on the list. The AI clearly can't make a distinction between a J.J. Watt type pass rushing LB and Bobby Wagner. As for the comment that was made that about the stats not being "final" and would somehow reflect more real life-like stats after Early Access, well, this is just incorrect. At least where Sacks are concerned. I went back into a league in '21 and went through the Almanac and over the course of 10 seasons there was not ONE Linebacker amongst the Leaders in Sacks. Not one. It seems that the structure of the defensive plays could be severely affecting this, which if true, really needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that this aspect of the game has been touched in awhile. Again, there are adjustments and custom plays, etc that can be made from the aspect of the User and in the MP environment, but in solo play a big part of the immersion comes from the strategy capabilities of the User and the AI, stats, etc. Seems the game could use some improvement here.

Definitely agree. I'm not sure if its the AI play calling or match engine issues but the game tends to produce some wonky individual stat for defensive players, which as you said definitely affects single player immersion. Whether it's Cornerbacks being targeted way to often and having way too many tackles to linebackers not accumulating any sacks, there seems to be some underlying issue that needs to be addressed. While I'm sure the devs will fine-tune the game to produce somewhat realistic and believable total stats, I hope they also focus on fixing individual player statistics which were also a problem last year. Fixing this would heavily improve the SP experience at least in my opinion.

[SirMichaelJordan]

After reading through the thread I noticed that every "suggestion" that was made to the OP was related to how the USER can circumvent this issue. But the fact remains of what about the AI? Everyone doesn't play MP. This affects immersion and in a single player environment I think we all can agree that immersion is high up on the list. The AI clearly can't make a distinction between a J.J. Watt type pass rushing LB and Bobby Wagner. As for the comment that was made that about the stats not being "final" and would somehow reflect more real life-like stats after Early Access, well, this is just incorrect. At least where Sacks are concerned. I went back into a league in '21 and went through the Almanac and over the course of 10 seasons there was not ONE Linebacker amongst the Leaders in Sacks. Not one. It seems that the structure of the defensive plays could be severely affecting this, which if true, really needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that this aspect of the game has been touched in awhile. Again, there are adjustments and custom plays, etc that can be made from the aspect of the User and in the MP environment, but in solo play a big part of the immersion comes from the strategy capabilities of the User and the AI, stats, etc. Seems the game could use some improvement here.

I've had the same thoughts about single player and how this works. However as a first time user I've been hesitant to comment until I actually see how things work out when I play. Looking over my roster page at linebackers and my thinking is if we don't add MLB, OLB then the AI needs a way to make better decisions. Speed, agility, etc. OLB. Strength, tackling, etc. MLB. Oversimplified example I know but something along these lines. Set it up with no penalty for anyone in the LB group to play any spot, it's already not there now. Just have a better way for the AI to make the selections. Whether that is by adding MLB, OLB or tuning the skills the AI uses to make the selection now doesn't matter, I guess, as long as a more realistic decision can be made for single players.

Same logic needs to be applied to the DL as well. I see the AI signing and playing undersized DE’s in a 3-4 defense. I’m surely at an advantage here if strength and size plays a factor.

[brooks_piggott]

I'm going to tweak the DC so that more OLB get slotted in OLB positions and better suited MLB players get put in the MLB slot, but it still depends a lot on coach preferences as to which players they will rank higher.