Contracts for rookies ???

Contracts for rookies ???

Postby clamel » Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:41 am

First I haven't DL a testversion of this latest v2023 so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
I watched the filmclips on YT and twitch on this new version but couldn't see anything new on contracts, so here we go.

I always seem to complain, but I do wish this game to be the best on the market concerning managing a football team.

My wishes this time comes with contracts.
I tested version 2022 and I still don't like the DDS own formulas for contracts. I can swallow not having 7 years to offer and the restricted pick you got with backload,heavy-backload,frontload or similar, BUT
I can't figure out the bonus for one with restricted choices and the biggest issue is when you start up a new season and the contracts the recently drafted players got.
Last year I took Trevor Lawrence as a testplayer and he had about 18 millions for each of his 4 years WHAT ??? Can't see that as a rookie contract. To play this game from start and manage caprooms and such (which must be a target in this game) a rookie can't have a vet contract.
I tried out a couple of "fixed" playerfiles. One had 4 years and in that file you only have ONE salary set, in this case 9 millions. Trevor ended up having his 4 years put out as 7,8,9,10 millions for these years. Not sure how the imported of the game was programmed getting that setup, based on the 9 millions in the importing file. He actually had 660000 first years in real life. Now the bonus factor comes in hard here since that's what you use to regulate caproom. In the file I can't find any such bonus slot. In the standard file from DDS no bonus either.
Trying to go Sandbox and fix Trevor contracts just didn't work. Still only one number can be filled in and then the game calculate it's own crazy formula. It would be good to make it possible to have several spots to put numbers in for all types of contracts. My old fab game Front Office Football had spots for up to 7 years with slots for each year including bonuses. Can't be hard to program Brooks.

Conclusion is that this economic situation MUST be delt with very soon by Brooks and his gang. A manager game with totally fantasy setups in contracts will not do in my book. Heck, even Madden can do this. I know it's a monumental task for the team to put in contracts in the default roster but plenty of keen modders will sure take care of that problem when the game comes. All needed is a proper file construction and a program that can handle the import.

So my wish this time is that Brooks team put their focus on economics and salary, put in more columns in the file people can mod and make the program understand that a player with experience of 1 year should be a rookie and his contract should be as the formulas say in the setup page. It works down the line with coming seasons but it's all out of whack when you start playing and that pissses one off.
Put the man hours you got into creatig an arcade world with gamers trying to put themselves into the game and having a fantasy run at it. That is pure arcade and I believe this game is maskerading as a Football Manager game.

Did I mentioned the 5th year option for rookies. Is that working ??

Lets hope for DDS to take the next step in making it possible for us to play the game with the tools of managing contracts and caprooms, in fact the biggest thing in this type of game, isn't it ???
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby brooks_piggott » Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:05 am

The salary system in the game has been simplified to make it easier to understand, manage, and use. I'm not interested in replicating the complexity of the NFL system. We use a base system plus modifier for back or front loaded contracts.

For the default rosters we use a very rough formula to set their salaries... kind of a blend between salary and signing bonus... but it doesn't always align perfectly... just enough to be reasonable. As you noted you are more than welcome to create your own rosters and import them with whichever salaries you want, but you won't be able to do exact matches to NFL contracts. Also, the contracts in the default file only get used if you assign players to teams... if you use the draft or free agency to slot the players it will use the in-game contracts that the team offers.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby NBryant » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:52 pm

Clamel - Like you I long for a heavy financial system that challenges you as a player as much as creating a game plan and quality franchise. Brooks has noted that he has no interest in this being that type of management system so it does have the look and feel of American Football without the management levels in a deeper sim like OOTP.. It's a shame and I don't agree but it is what it is. With that to try and give me the CAP "feel" and have the game create its contracts was I created a spreadsheet that is based off of the real NFL CAP figures as the base that I will use for every season. From there I calculated the breakdown for each position based on the base game format on a percentage basis and structured the min/max totals accordingly. So far it does help give the contracts more of a representative total but it is still just a mask on a top of, as you put it, something that is more arcade and actually useless then anything. The problem in doing something like this is that it becomes a pain to have to do the updates each season just to get the little benefit it contributes. I still periodically buy the game because at the moment it is the only one in this genre that scratches the football itch. Hopefully one day an American Football sim that has a true and challenging mangement system, say an enhanced FOF, will come along but I have my doubts that one ever will.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby clamel » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:02 pm

NBryant wrote:Clamel - Like you I long for a heavy financial system that challenges you as a player as much as creating a game plan and quality franchise. Brooks has noted that he has no interest in this being that type of management system so it does have the look and feel of American Football without the management levels in a deeper sim like OOTP.. It's a shame and I don't agree but it is what it is. With that to try and give me the CAP "feel" and have the game create its contracts was I created a spreadsheet that is based off of the real NFL CAP figures as the base that I will use for every season. From there I calculated the breakdown for each position based on the base game format on a percentage basis and structured the min/max totals accordingly. So far it does help give the contracts more of a representative total but it is still just a mask on a top of, as you put it, something that is more arcade and actually useless then anything. The problem in doing something like this is that it becomes a pain to have to do the updates each season just to get the little benefit it contributes. I still periodically buy the game because at the moment it is the only one in this genre that scratches the football itch. Hopefully one day an American Football sim that has a true and challenging mangement system, say an enhanced FOF, will come along but I have my doubts that one ever will.


I can't see why this game should be for the "casual" fan alone. It has all the proper basic for more in depth manager handling. I don't crave total NFL style contracts, but the little addition of a common bonus to adjust for cap. Cap is in the game so why not exploit it more. Everytime I asked and wished for something deeper the answer has been to keep the game simple as possible and just add a fantasy version on the subject.
As you say NBryant the wish for something deeper (enhanced and more modern UI style FOF) is a wish for many so why not take the step DDS ? It can still be played with easier control. Several other details in the game got a simpler way to play and that could be put in options.
A bit deeper salary and cap handling is the base for playing manager/GM in games. No reason to blame things on shorter staff. OOTP developed over the years to a fantastic game, and this could go the same way if not stubbornly staying on simple mode. I'm glad it develops some every year but now and then I think it put the biggest effort on things just for show and lure more casual fans. The hardcord fans are left in the wake. We can never have a 100% game but why not take it as far as it can go.
Madden moved on the graphics and this should move on the inside manager, since most surely only sim games.
I never give up hope (even if it looks to be not in lifetime) I am retired so maybe not much left ;-)
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby brooks_piggott » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:43 pm

I may need to go back and reread the post. It seemed to all be about a specific NFL player and their specific NFL contract that you couldn't replicate. Obviously a pure NFL contract won't translate well to the game since the NFL has multiple layers of salary, guaranteed, signing bonuses, dead cap, deferred cap, bonuses, contract restructuring, etc. That was the part I'm referring to. Otherwise the salary system in the game works fine for our purposes... gives the game an "economy" with several ways for people to customize it to approximate whatever they're doing for their league.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby AKH » Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:20 am

I will chime in here, with my brief 5 cents. This is somewhat a separate point to the topic of rookies contracts, but I want to push back a bit on the narrative that the game is moving in a less complex or more causal-gamer oriented direction.

In the years I have been with the company we have added:
Coaches
Training
Scouting
Depth Chart Packages
Gameplanning
Custom play creation
AI trading
Player traits
More than a dusin new formations
Hundreds of plays, routes, motions
More complex player personalities
More complex Contracts (in the early years there was no front/backloading or bonuses)
"Social" interactions and relationships between individuals in the "world"
Improvement and expansion of the on-field game behavior of players (a crazy amount)

(This is only a rudimentary list from the top of my head to highlight things that added complexity to the game. We added a bunch of other stuff as well.)

Given this list - in my opinion of course - the idea that the game is headed in a direction of less complexity is not a fair depiction of the state of affairs. PF23 is a substantially more complex, detailed, and comprehensive game that it was in its early years (not that many years ago). Are we still concerned about what the casual gamer likes? Of course we are. Does this mean that the game is _not also_ being substantially and consistently developed in a direction of interest to more 'hardcore' fans? I would say no. Observe, that I am _not_ saying that we will never do more on salaries, in fact, one could see the above list as a reassurance that we might eventually do this, but 'when' is an open question.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby zac » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:46 am

On the topic of contracts, i understand some simplicities and would be awesome to have a more guaranteed/non-guaranteed struction to every deal long term but understand that logic wouldn't be easy in short term. Without getting that far, below are some more basic contract related issues I've seen in '22 and now '23:

1) Bonus logic is broken in my opinion and leagues would be MUCH better off at least with the ability to just turn off the ability to offer bonuses for the entire league if not easy way to make bonus logic better. There doesn't appear to really be logic behind a player's valuation of a bonus offer they receive or confirming a bonus metric is even achievable for a player. You can offer a WR a bonus in rushing TDs for example and it actually seems to help your chance to sign the player. Or even if you do receiving yards bonus for a WR, a team can make it an unattainable number. I've seen users stack multiple bonuses into one offer and get a player to accept a 1 year / $4 offer (with multiple crazy bonuses) instead of the player taking over non-bonus offers from teams with $20 million per year on the table. That's the 2nd part of bonuses is that they only affect the future years of a contract. So if you 'meet" the bonus metric in the last (or only) year of a contract, it doesn't matter as the contract is now over, and nowhere for the bonus to hurt a team's cap. Also if you give a player a 5% bonus for 10 TDs, I think many users think it's a bonus for a 10-TD season but the game works in that the bonus kicks in once the player hits 10 TDs for the entire contract. This seems odd but a guess, not a huge issue if the above issue about hitting a bonus on the last year has no impact. The entire bonus logic can be ignored by single players but is impossible to use for multiple-player leagues. It'd be awesome to have the ability for leagues just to turn off bonus offers. Also add some way for a bonus to hurt a team's cap situation even if a metric is hit in the last year of a contract.

2) player contract extension demands have no logic to detect the "best" value of a player. Contract logic is nearly purely based on the listed overall rating in the game. If a player is listed as 84 OVR at LB but a team moves him to DE and he's now rated as a 78 OVR DE, his contract demands are way lower. He's literally the exact same player but the team just has him listed a bit differently on the roster screen and maybe gives him some snaps at DE and the player is unable to determine that he's an above-average LB. In seems a game should be able to determine best use regardless of how a team uses said player and determine extension (or free agent demands).

3) contract years in the draft seem odd? The first 3 picks have 6-year contracts. The rest of the first round has 5-year contracts. Then 4-year contracts for the first half of the 2nd round then it switches to 3-year contracts for rest of 2nd round. Feels odd to have it switch mid-round to me but sure there's a good reason. Would be awesome to add 5-year options like NFL but if not would be ideal just to keep all first-round contracts at 5 years, rounds 2-3 at 4 years, etc.

4) imo would take things to next level in this game had more unpredictable player career arcs. Players are super predictable in their exact career progression and regression. In real life, being a GM is so fun due to the challenge of the unpredictability of player careers. You have the promising RB that looks great for 2 years, has 1 injury-riddled year and is never the same. Or the QB that looks like a bust for 2 seasons and then becomes elite very quickly. Even on very high regression and higher progression settings, it helps with general league balance but offering a 23-year-old RB a 7-year contract has no risk in this game. Even offering a 30-year-old CB with good speed a 4-5 year contract has zero risk. It should be rare and many players should stick to a more typical progression/regression path but you should see players that just fall off out of nowhere or occasionally see a player make a huge jump. Or the rookie that comes in with good ratings but for whatever reason actually gets a bit worse with time.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby RaidersFan65 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:38 pm

In essence, the Wolverine team wants a game that attracts the most possible players. A management sim doesn't really do that. And therefore, further building of any point of the management system will not happen. All the arcade options will be what the team works on, for the most part, with occasional attempts to keep the base game balanced and stats in general similar to NFL stats. Otherwise, most people these days don't want to think, so they don't want to manage a franchise... they just want to play the game without a lot of thought, and Wolverine recognizes that and will continue to try to attract the largest possible player base. Like everything, it's simple math. To make the most money, which is usually the #1 priority of any company (and should be), they need to get the most people to buy the game. I don't blame them... it is what it is.

Like NBryant, I would like to see a game that is more of a management game for American Football, with coaching strategy. The GM vs. GM and coach vs. coach part of American Football is what is most interesting to me. I love trying to squeeze the most of my salary cap vs. other players and, with what I have, outcoaching them. What attracted me to this game was the ability to design your own plays and gameplans. But other pieces which create strategic options to be considered by the player have not come to par with other parts of the game... and as has been stated, they won't because they aren't interested.

All this being said, you know what the game is, and what the developers want and where they are going. You can keep asking, but they have made a decision... so now the ball is in your court, and you and each of us players has to make our own decisions on whether or not to buy the game. I personally check in every year, and test out the game and decide if it's worth buying for me. I suggest you do the same. Overall, as ATH has said, they make changes every year, and not just small changes. Maybe you'll like them, maybe you won't... but I think the game, and the developers, are worth checking in on year after year even if the current iteration of the game is not for you. Finally, I don't think it hurts to share your opinion... I just think that saying the same thing year after year, and getting the same responses... won't change.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby zac » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:51 pm

Yeah I wasn’t even really trying to ask for complex contracts. main point of my post was just pointing out some basic logic flaws for bonus’s already in game (or ability to turn off). And game logic flaws for a player to ask for a salary based on his best position, not just where he is listed at for a given moment. Obviously no game is meant to be perfect but can help to indicate issues.

On that topic though, I think some complexity adds depth and keeps people returning for more. I could be way off and no point to argue direction of game as pointless since we aren’t making it, but think most people that play these type of games do so seeking more depth and strategy, not less. But for my post, most meant to point out current logic flaws that have huge contract impacts.
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Re: Contracts for rookies ???

Postby brooks_piggott » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:29 pm

Bonus logic has been tweaked in patches but more work does need to go into tightening up things I agree. We can certainly tweak some of that in a patch since you pointed out a few things to address.

Contract extensions do get modified by "best" position versus "current" position, but it may not be strong enough. It could also be financial system set ups... max contract values are taken into account for current position... otherwise things break pretty quickly if a DT max is 5 mil and a DE max is 10 mil I can't really give the DT a 10 mil salary.

Contract years were patterned off of one recent draft class... it didn't make sense to have random years and some folks get "lucky" to have an extra year due to where they picked. Switching mid-round may not be ideal either but it gave me the split to match historical precedent. I can look at it again and make sure it's still reasonable.

And there are career arcs in the game... there are players who will get massive gains later in their careers as a "diamond" kind of deal. And there are players that will have massive gain years, but then fall off pretty quickly. Most players come into the league, gain a few points here or there if they're on teams, and then languish and finally retire as they age or fall off of teams. And some ratings are slow moving and don't go up or down much at all, while other ratings are a bit more dynamic. I also think we added config options to further adjust training camp results for those that want more movement.
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